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Podcast brief

C.S. Lewis Against Moral Subjectivism and the Tao

Caleb Ontiveros and Michael Tremblay examine C.S. Lewis's case against moral subjectivism and his idea of a shared moral core called the Tao.

A Stoa brief of an episode from Stoa Conversations

C.S. Lewis and the Tao | The Abolition of Man Part II

Published 50 min

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The episode belongs to its makers. This page summarizes its arguments in Stoa's words and points to the moments where they are made. Brief updated .

The brief

C.S. Lewis argues that moral subjectivism, the view that value judgments are just expressions of feeling, cannot account for how people actually live. Caleb Ontiveros and Michael Tremblay walk through the second chapter of The Abolition of Man to show why.

Lewis's first move is to catch subjectivists in a kind of selective skepticism. They doubt the values of others while treating their own values as beyond question. That pattern suggests their skepticism is a stance for arguing, not a real description of how they live. Tremblay connects this to Epictetus's point against ancient skeptics: no matter how much someone doubts good and bad in theory, they still duck when a pot is thrown at their head. Some judgments about good and bad are not optional.

Lewis then tests three popular ways to ground morality without appealing to tradition. Altruism just relocates the question, since it still has to explain why sacrifice for others counts as good. Egoism cannot explain why self-interest should be the standard in the first place. Instinct either says nothing, since calling something instinctive often just marks our ignorance of it, or it leaves us with no way to settle conflicts between instincts. The hosts illustrate the same failure with a rebellious teenager who rejects inherited morality in the name of individual choice, not noticing that the value of choice is itself part of the tradition being rejected.

Lewis's positive claim is that moral development has to work from within a tradition, the way a poet reshapes a language he loves, rather than from outside, the way a reformer imposes rules on it. Tremblay links this to a conservative disposition toward change and to Will Kymlicka's picture of liberal progress as widening an already shared circle of concern, rather than inventing values from nothing. The episode ends with Lewis's list of eight cross-cultural laws making up the Tao: general beneficence, special beneficence, duties to parents and elders, duties to children and posterity, justice, good faith, mercy, and magnanimity.

The hosts do not let the opening argument off easy. Tremblay notes that selective skepticism is not a refutation, subjectivism could still be true even if people are inconsistent. Ontiveros agrees it is not a knockdown blow, but says it still puts the burden back on subjectivists to defend their values rather than wave the question away. That is a fair place to leave it, and a useful question to ask of your own convictions.

Strongest arguments

Subjectivists practice selective skepticism

5:53

Lewis argues that people who claim values are merely feelings still hold their own set of values dogmatically, applying skepticism only to other people's values. This shows their skepticism is not a lived position but an intellectual pose reserved for critiquing others.

Epictetus's flying pot as a parallel argument

7:37

Tremblay compares Lewis's point to Epictetus's argument against skeptics: however much someone doubts the reality of good and bad, they will still duck if a pot is thrown at their head. This shows that people cannot help perceiving certain things as genuinely good or bad, no matter how much skeptical distance they claim in argument.

Altruism, egoism, and instinct all fail as groundings for morality

11:18

Lewis considers three popular ways to ground values without appeal to tradition. Altruism just pushes the question back to why sacrifice for the community is good. Egoism cannot explain why self-interest should govern judgment in the first place. Instinct is either empty, since calling something instinct often just means we don't understand it, or it fails to adjudicate between conflicting instincts, which requires some further standard.

The rebellious teenager smuggles back tradition to reject it

19:50

Someone who rejects obligations to parents or society because they did not choose those relationships is relying on the value of individual choice, which is itself part of traditional morality. This selective rejection of only some inherited values, while relying on others to justify the rejection, is self-refuting and has no principled basis.

Moral innovation should come from within a tradition, not from without

24:29

Lewis uses the image of a poet who alters his native language from love and deep familiarity with it, versus a theorist who imposes changes on language from outside for convenience. Real moral progress works the same way: it develops the Tao's own resources, rather than discarding the foundation and starting fresh, which Lewis compares to being told to eat bricks and centipedes instead of just cooking your vegetables better.

Moral progress as expanding an already shared circle

34:28

Tremblay reports a view from Will Kymlicka, that liberal moral progress can be understood as extending an already-recognized standard of respect and consideration, first limited to propertied men, to more and more beings, eventually including non-human animals. This is progress within a shared foundation rather than the invention of new values from nothing.

The eight laws of the Tao as common sense morality

41:47

Lewis compiles cross-cultural examples from Old Norse, Babylonian, Confucian, Roman, Hindu, and Christian sources into eight general laws: general beneficence, special beneficence, duties to parents and elders, duties to children and posterity, justice, good faith and veracity, mercy, and magnanimity. Ontiveros notes these map onto the four classical virtues and Tremblay frames them as common sense morality rather than lofty philosophy.

Disagreements

Whether selective skepticism refutes subjectivism

6:54

Tremblay pushes back that Lewis's observation about selective skepticism is not a full counterargument against subjectivism, since subjectivism could still be true even if people hold their values uncritically. Ontiveros agrees it is not a knockdown argument but maintains that it still shows subjectivists are called to defend their values rather than simply dismiss the question.

Concepts discussed

  • Progress The person making progress is recognized by expecting benefit and harm only from himself, not blaming others, and quietly correcting himself.
  • altruism Behavior that benefits another at a cost to oneself, with no expectation of return.
  • Skepticism The philosophical position that we should suspend judgment because certainty about the external world, or about the correspondence of our ideas to it, cannot be established.

Philosophers and works discussed

  • C.S. Lewis
  • The Abolition of Man By C.S. Lewis.

Questions this episode answers

  • What is C.S. Lewis's argument against moral subjectivism in The Abolition of Man?

    5:53

    Lewis argues subjectivists practice a selective skepticism, doubting others' values while uncritically holding their own, which suggests they do not really believe values are mere feelings.

  • What is the Tao or the Way in C.S. Lewis's philosophy?

    11:18

    The Tao is Lewis's term for a shared moral core running through Stoicism, Confucianism, Christianity and other traditions, grounding values like justice and beneficence in a picture of nature rather than in feelings.

  • Why does Epictetus think skeptics cannot really doubt the reality of good and bad?

    7:37

    Epictetus argues that however much a skeptic doubts in words, they will still duck if a pot is thrown at their head, showing that some judgments of good and bad reveal themselves as unavoidable in practice.

  • Why does C.S. Lewis think altruism, egoism, and instinct fail to ground morality?

    11:18

    Altruism just pushes back the question of why sacrifice is good, egoism cannot explain why self-interest should guide judgment, and instinct is either an empty label or leaves conflicting urges without any standard to adjudicate between them.

  • What does C.S. Lewis mean by altering a moral tradition from within versus from without?

    24:29

    Lewis compares moral development to a poet who reshapes his native language out of love for it, versus a theorist who imposes changes from outside, arguing real moral progress must develop a tradition's own resources rather than discard its foundation.

  • What are the eight laws of the Tao that C.S. Lewis identifies across cultures?

    41:47

    Lewis compiles general beneficence, special beneficence, duties to parents and elders, duties to children and posterity, justice, good faith and veracity, mercy, and magnanimity, drawn from Old Norse, Babylonian, Confucian, Roman, Hindu, and Christian sources.

Related primary passages

The condition and characteristic of a vulgar person, is, that he never expects either benefit or hurt from himself, but from externals. The condition and characteristic of a philosopher is, that he expects all hurt and benefit from himself. The marks of a proficient are, that he censures no one, praises no one, blames no one, accuses no one, says nothing concerning himself as being anybody, or knowing anything: when he is, in any instance, hindered or restrained, he accuses himself; and, if he is praised, he secretly laughs at the person who praises him; and, if he is censured, he makes no defense.

Epictetus, Handbook 48 Read in context

This is the clearest checklist the Stoics give for recognizing someone making progress.

Some things are in our control and others not. Things in our control are opinion, pursuit, desire, aversion, and, in a word, whatever are our own actions. Things not in our control are body, property, reputation, command, and, in one word, whatever are not our own actions.

Epictetus, Handbook 1 Read in context

This is the founding statement of the dichotomy of control, the axis the rest of Epictetus's teaching turns on.

Sources

  1. Epictetus, Handbook Primary text, Stoa library
  2. Stoa Conversations, C.S. Lewis and the Tao | The Abolition of Man Part II Podcast episode, original episode