Podcast brief
Sappho on Eros, Beauty, and the Socratic Connection
Peter Adamson talks with Marguerite Johnson about Sappho's fragmentary poetry and its ties to early Greek philosophy.
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HoP 500a Marguerite Johnson on Sappho
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The brief
This conversation argues that Sappho's poetry, though preserved only in fragments, carries philosophical weight that connects her to later Greek thought about reason, desire, and beauty. Marguerite Johnson walks Peter Adamson through what actually survives of Sappho's work and why, before turning to what that work says.
Johnson explains that Sappho composed around 10,000 lines across nine books in antiquity, but only about 650 lines remain, recovered mostly from discarded papyri at Oxyrhynchus in Egypt and from quotations preserved in later writers such as Longinus. New discoveries keep surfacing. A 2004 find completed the Poem on Old Age and is now accepted by scholars, but the 2014 Brothers' Poem lacks a certified provenance and emerged amid political upheaval in Egypt, so Johnson treats it as unresolved rather than settled fact.
On the philosophical content, Johnson draws a distinction between Aphrodite, a goddess Sappho can petition and bargain with, and eros itself, which Sappho describes as a bittersweet, limb-loosening force that overwhelms rational control, echoing anxieties about passion already present in Homer. She reads Poem 1 not as an egalitarian vision of love between equals, a popular misreading she rejects, but as reflecting the real power imbalance of Greek pederasty, with traces of erotic binding magic in its language. In Fragment 16, Sappho names desire itself as the measure of beauty, a claim Johnson connects to Protagoras's later dictum that man is the measure of all things, though she frames this as a suggestive parallel rather than a settled case for direct influence.
The strongest interpretive move comes with Maximus of Tyre's ancient pairing of Sappho and Socrates as practitioners of a pedagogical eros aimed at beautiful young people of their own preferred sex. Johnson offers a sympathetic reading tied to Platonic love in the Symposium, while acknowledging it reflects her own idealizing sympathies rather than settled consensus. She closes by noting how suffragettes and second-wave feminists reshaped Sappho into a symbol of women's creative and sexual power, a reception history she finds worth taking seriously without collapsing it into scholarship.
The conversation leaves open how far Sappho's ideas actually shaped later philosophy, and how much of that connection is retrospective pattern-finding.
Strongest arguments
Sappho's poetry survives only in scraps of ancient rubbish
8:10Johnson explains that of roughly 10,000 lines of poetry Sappho composed, only about 650 survive, mostly from the Oxyrhynchus rubbish dump in Egypt and from quotations embedded in later authors like Longinus. New fragments are still surfacing, including a 2004 discovery that completed the poem on old age.
Recent Sappho discoveries have uncertain authenticity
13:25The Poem on Old Age, completed in 2004 from the Cologne Papyrus Collection, has an established provenance and is scholarly consensus. By contrast, the 2014 Brothers' Poem lacks a certified provenance, having emerged amid Egyptian political upheaval with contradictory stories about its origin, so Johnson treats it as still problematic.
Eros is an uncontrollable force distinct from Aphrodite
19:04Johnson argues that Sappho, like other ancient Greeks, feared eros as a limb-loosening, bittersweet force that overwhelms reason, unlike Aphrodite whom Sappho can petition and negotiate with. This fear of losing rational control to passion echoes concerns found already in Homer's Iliad.
Poem 1 reflects real Greek power dynamics, not an egalitarian ideal
25:06Johnson rejects readings of Sappho's Hymn to Aphrodite as depicting a utopia of equal desire between women, arguing instead that the poem shows a clear dominant-submissive power dynamic comparable to the pederastic relationship between an older erastes and younger eromenos. She also suggests the poem shows traces of Greek erotic binding magic, the katadesmoi.
Fragment 16 prefigures Protagorean relativism about beauty
31:07In Fragment 16, Sappho declares that the most beautiful thing is whatever one desires, rejecting the Homeric valuation of armies and ships. Johnson argues this anticipates Protagoras's claim that man is the measure of all things, and raises the possibility of a genuine line of influence into Sophistic thought.
Maximus of Tyre pairs Sappho with Socrates as teachers of eros
39:30Johnson reads Maximus of Tyre's ancient comparison of Sappho and Socrates as both practicing a pedagogical love directed at beautiful young people of their preferred sex, using irony and cultivating multiple beloveds. She offers an idealizing interpretation, drawing on Platonic love from the Symposium, in which both figures embody rather than merely preach their philosophy of eros, while acknowledging this reading reflects her own sympathies.
Sappho has been continually reshaped by later reception
47:19Johnson notes that Sappho has been claimed as a feminist icon by second-wave feminists, a symbol of women's genius by suffragettes, and a heroine by women poets across centuries, each group projecting its own image onto her. She is sympathetic to this but cautions that scholarly analysis must be kept separate from such reinvention.
Disagreements
Whether Sappho's poem depicts an egalitarian love ideal
25:30Johnson states that some readers insist Sappho presents a female utopia where love is equal between partners, but she argues this is not the case and that Poem 1 clearly shows a power imbalance similar to pederasty.
Whether the Brothers' Poem should be treated as genuine Sappho
17:35Johnson notes that some Sappho scholars have included the disputed Brothers' Poem in new editions and translations, treating it as authentic, while she personally has left it alone because its provenance has never been definitively certified.
Philosophers and works discussed
- Sappho
- Socrates
- Fragment 16 By Sappho.
- Poem 1 (Hymn to Aphrodite) By Sappho.
Questions this episode answers
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How much of Sappho's original poetry has survived to today?
8:10Of roughly 10,000 lines Sappho composed, arranged into 9 books in antiquity, only about 650 lines survive, mostly through the Oxyrhynchus papyri and quotations in later authors.
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Why is the Brothers' Poem attributed to Sappho controversial?
16:27The Brothers' Poem, said to be discovered around 2011 to 2014, lacks a certified provenance, with contradictory stories about its origin during a period of Egyptian political upheaval, raising concerns it could be looted or even forged.
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How does Sappho describe the experience of eros or desire?
19:04Sappho calls eros bittersweet and a limb loosener, portraying it as an uncontrollable, almost monstrous force that overwhelms reason, unlike Aphrodite whom she can petition for favor.
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Does Sappho's Fragment 16 anticipate Protagoras's relativism?
32:02In Fragment 16 Sappho claims the most beautiful thing is whatever a person desires, which Johnson argues prefigures Protagoras's dictum that man is the measure of all things, suggesting a possible line of influence into Sophistic thought.
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Why did Maximus of Tyre compare Sappho to Socrates?
40:06Maximus of Tyre likened Sappho's love of women to Socrates's Socratic art of love toward men, noting both cultivated many beloveds and used irony, which Johnson interprets as an idealized comparison rooted in Platonic love from the Symposium.
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How does Sappho's Poem 1 reflect Greek power dynamics in love?
25:06Poem 1 shows Sappho as the dominant partner petitioning Aphrodite to make an unnamed, passive beloved love her, a dynamic Johnson compares to the pederastic relationship between an older lover and younger beloved in Greek society.